‘Tete-A-Tete’ with Pavan Varma

Y: The first thing is to define art, culture and religion. They are usually overlapping, and people use them interchangeably. I feel that culture, art and religion are completely different things. Let’s start by defining these three terms

P: I think that Art is the expression of creativity, and we fortunately had a seminal text – the Natyashastra written by Bharath, from 600 BCE. It is not only a compendium of the arts, but also a meditation of what constitutes the aesthetic experience. In that sense, India is the founder of aesthetics. It is a description of how a person enjoys art, what should be the state of the mind when you view art, which can be visual or plastic.

What is the state of the mind of the viewer when they are in the presence of art, what should be the internal transformations that should happen and why should that piece of art contribute to ultimately creating an expression of Ananda within the viewer? That is the theory of the rasa. It was outlined with some detail by Bharath in the Natyashastra and expanded beautifully by Abhinav Gupta in the 11th century. So, we have what constitutes the aesthetic experience, be it of culture or art, they are both bound by the experience of art and culture and what it should be constituting of. My view is that culture is about the inner sensibilities that allow you to appreciate the art, art is the performative and the two are integrated by the theory of rasa.

Y: Can we say art is a skill? And culture is an experience?

P: I would never reduce art to a skill, art itself is a spiritual journey when the artist themselves undergoes an internal transformation. That in fact is Bharath’s point that art is not merely a commodity and the artist not merely a person of skill but a person that undergoes a certain transformation in the pursuit of bliss which should be created in the minds of the viewer.

Y: Can we say art is a vehicle of culture?

P: Art is an aspect of culture. And culture constitutes the entire sanskriti by which art has a place in civilised society,

Y: How would we then place religion? In India they are closely knit and not extricable.

P: To understand the link between religion and art, it is important to understand the substratum of both, which is the spiritual journey. When you speak of religion per say, it constitutes another kind of ecosystem which has to do with ritual and the performance of rituals whereas the spiritual transcends the religion. For us in India at least, the difference between spirituality and the artistic experience does not exist. The artistic experience is supposed to contribute to the same Ananda which is the net outcome of the spiritual experience. The two in my view are separate. In order to understand the interface between spirituality of art and religion, we need to understand the interface between nirgun and Sagun. ‘Nirgun’ is the notion of the ultimate as attribute less without form. It is the experience that is formless but whose very essence is Ananda. ‘Sagun’ is the manifestation in conventional form of the nirgun experience. There the inane imagination is allowed full scope. So, the Sagun can be depicted, for example, of the shiva, who has both an iconography as well as the Linga form, which more or less attributes less pillar of light. In the Sagun manifestation, you have shiva’s thandavam, shiva and Parvathi, the Nataraja. So, the Sagun imagination allows the elaboration of art stemming from an attribute less, formless inner experience which is the nirguna brahma. ‘Brahm Nirvishes Chinmatra’- undifferentiated consciousness. It is Akhand- indivisible, Achintya- beyond thought, Adrishya- beyond sight. It is the ultimate which pervades the entire cosmos and speaks of the unity without division or duality of the inner experience which consists of sa-chit-ananda, bliss and awareness. Sagun is the manifestation of that. Where imagination is allowed full play and we will see that happening in Indian art. But the purpose of the Sagun manifestation as an art be it dance, music, in the plastic arts, in all such examples the ultimate goal is to take the soul back to the nirguna.

Y: It is the union of the soul with the Para brahman

P: Ultimately, there is a correlation in the Indian imagination between art and spirituality but not necessarily religion, but religion animates and inspires art.

Y: So, religion we can say is a manifestation of our imagination, we can give it a visual form so it’s relatable?

P: That is how it is structured also. A Kuchipudi or Bharatanatyam performance will go through certain stages before you go to the thillana, and that is supposed to obliterate conventional thought processes and take the viewer through the journey of non-thought which is the brahman.

Y: Can we say art, predates religion as it is a basic expression of human self?

P: Yes, art has to do with an inner urge for discovery and of joy. Whether it happens in the context of religion or outside it. Joy or Anand is the ultimate goal. In the cave painting of Bhimbetka, there are descriptions of art on the rock surfaces which are 1000s of years old where the artist has given expression to his inner senses of creativity which can also be channelised to what is religion. There is a very important connecting factor between religion and art which is bhakti. When there is devotional order, there is an expression of the inner urge in art. The desire to create something that best represents the inner urge of surrender- samarpan.

Y: Art is an expression. But it must be joyous

O: Or it must contribute to the emotion of joy even by contradistinction. We have the navarasa. Some of them may not immediately contribute to joy, like roudra. But through the expression of the navarasa, the ultimate expression should be one of fulfillment of joy.

Y: Take a production for example, which may not be happy, it could be about death or sorrow. You don’t have direct joy, but you are awakening something inside you.

P: In the absence of sorrow is joy. In the experience of sorrow, by contrast you experience the possibility of joy. It is a complex emotion. The Indian imagination recognises that there could be many expressions of art and navarasa is an example. For the viewer, they must ultimately further endorse that experience of oneness-non-duality and joy.

Y: Is there a particular date or can we trace the history to see when religion entered the arts?

P: What is important is to understand there is something that the human being seeks beyond himself. One is the limitation of the real world in the taverns of joy, grief and pain. The other is the urge to go beyond it, to find something that transcends it and, in that search, both religion and spirituality are born. Art can be a means for that exploration.

Y: This occurred to me when in the Vedic period, we used to pray to the sun god and the 5 elements. Surya the sun became Suryanarayana and eventually Narayana. Would you call that worship of nature religion or when we started giving idol form?

P: Even nature is idolised. Surya is depicted in visual form. Many aspects of nature are. However, in my personal view, the first step beyond the immediate world. When we look at nature and its remarkable vastness and energies that suffuse it and try to give it a form to depict them. From then the next step is to go beyond the visual to the formless. Art is therefore an incessant journey.

Y: Can we say that religion was not there when there was the worship of nature?

P: Religious pursuit cannot be linked only to Gods and Goddesses in the conventional sense in which we know them. Religion is also about the worship of nature where instead of the trinity in the Hindu tradition, you worship the energy that manifests from them in the diverse forms of the cosmos including nature. The very act of worship and of depiction is in many ways religion, because you are acknowledging a higher force of power. And worshiping it as something beyond your immediate world, that becomes religion. From that you can move on to the stylised deities, representing the different aspects of cosmic energy including the destructive.

Y: Religion and art have been inexplicably linked since man had any consciousness.

P: What is wrong is to judge art by predetermined notions of what is religiously correct. Then a censor appears. The spontaneity of expression is then judged by people who may not be more evolved but who are far more prejudiced to what alone is right and that circumscribes art, and we see it in today’s time.

Y: We see it more in today’s time I feel. When we dance about puranic gods, we could also dance to Urdu poetry, we ultimately circle back to oneness.

P: The makavakya of the Rig Veda is that ‘ekam sath, vipraha bahuda vadanthi’. – There is one truth, wise people call it by different names. That concurring eclecticism that is inherent in Hinduism is sort of straight jacketed by somebody’s limited knowledge of what alone is right and wrong.

Y: When I was reading your book, I was reading that the uniqueness of Hinduism is that it is an evolving religion

P: Another important sentence that defines the Hindu worldview is ‘Ano Bhadraha Krithavo Yanthu Vrishrutha’. Let good thoughts flow to me from all directions. That suffuses art where there is a happy give and take. When that is short circuited or subverted by somebody else’s limited gaze then it creates a vitiation of a spontaneity of art and introduces an artificial censor which is not absolute but a manifestation of limited knowledge.

Y: I feel that this exists with many religions too are open to interpretation of the texts which are personal. When it is a personal interpretation, then many viewpoints are bound to come in

P: The Abrahamic faiths are different because they have a greater number of certitudes. In Hinduism, you have 6 systems of Hindu philosophy: the nya, vasisyik, sankh, yog, pornimach, uttarnimas. Technically they can be called atheist because they do not talk of a god. They are trying to find what could be the ultimate truth behind the bewildering plurality of the cosmos. At the same time, you have the charvak school which actually condemns the sanctity of the Vedas, you have the tantric school which are claimed to be unorthodox practices. So, the scope of dissent and interpretation and diversity is unlimited with Hindu. You can worship a rock, a tree or a stylised idol and everyone is a part of the wide river of Hinduism. Tributaries come in and the river is more majestic as it flows along absorbing those influences and not losing its unitary character.

Y: That’s why we have a pantheon of gods for our own choice

P: We allow our imagination to flow but are grounded in the nirgun notion. There is no insecurity.

Y: Do you think now under the present circumstances it is better to remove religion from art?

P: These things can’t be done by fear. If an artist moved by devotional fervour wishes a piece of art to a deity in a religious sense, how can you issue a command by doing so your work ceases to be art or it is not advisable?

Y: Not a command, the world is becoming extremist in so many ways, with narrow minded thoughts. Art seems to be shifting to higher purposes from gods. Do you think this is a good thing?

P: One is the intervention by people who seek to define the relationship between religion and art. I question the assumptions under which many people do this. Their knowledge of both religion and art is limited. The other extreme is when art limitations are used to denigrate religion and disrespect others faith. There are limitations and reasonable restrictions to that. I think art, religion and spirituality are a seamless whole and you cannot extricate one out of this matrix without, in my view, distortion.

Y: Do you think at a policy making level, do you think government and art and religion separate?

P: Gov. should get less and less involved in art in terms of direction and play a benevolent patron to all art. So, the gov’s ability to decide what constitutes good or bad art should be extremely circumscribed because the gov is not authorised to play the role of censorship. Art by definition thrives on freedom of expression and unless warranted by some extreme situation, to try and intervene in the processes of art and its expression is not the domain of government

Y: It should not, but it does intervene. How do you make a demarcation?

P: Government should not denigrate policy in the spontaneous expression of art, unless it is definitely not interpretatively, prejudiced to the larger interest of the community or state. That is a reserved power to be used rarely and with great discretion and judiciousness, otherwise art and gov should keep a respectable distance between themselves.

Y: Now in a globalised world, how do you see the relation between India’s art, religion and spirituality play out in an international space? On tours, people do enjoy seeing the puranic gods. In the western art is seen as ornamental and decorative rather than the depths that this beautiful vehicle can reach. We see in London or New York they are dealing with subjects more transcendental than mythology.

P: However much we believe that globalisation has created a homogenous global village, cultures are opaque. In your own culture what you take for granted appears completely incongruous to another culture. The way we bend to touch the feet in another culture it may appear to be an unacceptable form of greeting. In a globalised world where you have to depict one culture to the audience of another culture, an effort has to be made by the artist to explain some of the defining aspects of your culture, civilisation, religion. Spirituality, heritage and tradition.

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Legendary Kuchipudi Dancing couple, Raja and Radha Reddy, is responsible for bringing Kuchipudi dance, the pride of Andhra Pradesh, onto the cultural map of the world.

Legendary Kuchipudi Dancing couple, Raja and Radha Reddy, is responsible for bringing Kuchipudi dance, the pride of Andhra Pradesh, onto the cultural map of the world.
For their contribution to the art form they have been decorated with many awards nationally and internationally. They have had the honor of performing for presidents and prime ministers of many countries such as President Ford, Bill Clinton, Fidel Castro etc. They have conducted charity shows for Red Cross Society, Blind Relief Association, and the home for the aged people in Bombay and CRY. They had the honor of being invited as the first Indian dancers to participate in the International Dance festival of Avignon in France and Salzburg in Austria.

The couple’s contribution to the festival of India in the USA and the UK was considered outstanding. They were the star attraction of the All Star Ballet Gala festival in Japan. The Reddys inaugurated the India Festival in Bangladesh. Raja and Radha Reddy have created history by becoming the first couple to receive Padma Shri and Padma Bhushan award individually and simultaneously for the same cause by the President of India, the Sangeet Natak Academy award, International Meridian award etc.